OneYearBibleOnline Discussion

Joshua 7

Achan admitted that he had taken plunder without permission.

v25-26 'And all the Israelites stoned Achan and his family and burned their bodies. They piled a great heap of stones over Achan, which remains to this day. That is why the place has been called the Valey of Trouble ever since. So the Lord was no longer angry.'

I really struggle with this stuff - Achan stole, and deserved punishment, but did he and (especially) his ENTIRE family deserve death?
1) Why was God big on punishing the children and bystanders to things? Does that mean that God approves of this in today's society?
2) I agree that a punishment was in line for Achan, but this punishment does not appear to fit the crime. It is rather extreme??

Any ideas?

i'll give it a shot, anyone else is welcome to chime in with their thoughts.
perhaps the passage is dealing with sin in our own lives,and how it can eat at us from withinin and spread.

here is the matthew henry commentary on this passage. (we'll soon be adding the full commentary on oneyearbibleonline.com for reference)

This is one of those passages that most don't want to touch with a ten foot pole in what we consider the "era of Grace".
I made a post earlier bringing up a similar issue and cautioning us to look at things only with "modern eyes" while still not trying to explain the veracity of the LORD's actions as if somehow that was then and this is now, etc.

So, another hard Old Testament/Tanakh passage is set before us by our new friend, Sarah!
I will give a brief response and a longer one, here.

My brief response to your question of did Achan deserve his punishment, as well as his whole family is: YES!
However, I will preface my longer response with this point: It is quite possible from literary evidence in the text that Achan's whole family did not recieve the death sentence, but only suffered loss of property (and of course, covetous Achan).

Another point to keep in mind is, that while Scripture tells us that no one is punished for the sins of others, even if Achan's family did die (which I tend to doubt), others can still SUFFER because of our sins and what results of them. The destruction of these pagan cities is one example right along with what happens with Achan, so I wonder if this isn't a good place to deal with these types of issues early on in the history of Israel.

The stage has been set... Moses goes to Boot Hill and Joshua is the new leader. While he has been under the tutelage of Moses, he has never led this rabble by himself before and it seems that he as well as the people get a little lax and/or confused right away. Remember what the LORD told Joshua just a short while ago?

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Joshua 1
7 Only be strong and very courageous, being careful to do according to all the law that Moses my servant commanded you. Do not turn from it to the right hand or to the left, that you may have good success wherever you go. 8 This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success.

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Note in the initial attack on Ai, Joshua just commands it himself, and doesn't even send in all of the warriors. He is perhaps a bit too confident and seems to call the shots before the LORD initiates the taking of the city of Ai. While God does speak to Joshua, it is clear from Scripture that no human being was in as close communication as Moses was in that regard (we know that Jesus was no mere human, so His PERFECT communication with God is a given).


www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=jos...2-3;&version=51;

But the people of Israel broke faith in regard to the devoted things, for a Achan the son of Carmi, son of Zabdi, son of Zerah, of the tribe of Judah, took some of the devoted things. And the anger of the Lord burned against the people of Israel.

2 Joshua sent men from Jericho to Ai, which is near Beth-aven, east of Bethel, and said to them, Go up and spy out the land. And the men went up and spied out Ai. 3 And they returned to Joshua and said to him, Do not have all the people go up, but let about two or three thousand men go up and attack Ai. Do not make the whole people toil up there, for they are few. 4 So about 3,000 men went up there from the people. And c they fled before the men of Ai, 5 and the men of Ai killed about thirty-six of their men and chased them before the gate as far as Shebarim and struck them at the descent. And the hearts of the people melted and became as water.

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10 The Lord said to Joshua, Get up! Why have you fallen on your face? 11 Israel has sinned; they have transgressed my covenant that I commanded them; they have taken some of the devoted things; they have stolen and lied and put them among their own belongings. 12 Therefore the people of Israel cannot stand before their enemies. They turn their backs before their enemies, because they have become devoted for destruction. I will be with you no more, unless you destroy o the devoted things from among you. 13 Get up! Consecrate the people and say, Consecrate yourselves for tomorrow; for thus says the Lord, God of Israel, There are devoted things in your midst, O Israel. You cannot stand before your enemies until you take away the devoted things from among you.


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Remember, in the previous taking of a city, all of the objects, such as those that Achan took, were supposed to be devoted to the LORD. There are certainly several reasons for this, but lets just look at Achan himself.
He took a large sum of loot...enough to probably tide him over if he ever had to buy something for the rest of his life! He not only sinned by taking these things, he also would most likely continue to slip into disobedience , as he really wouldn't need to rely on the LORD with all of that loot, would he? Remember what Jesus said about the difficulty a rich person can have in attaining salvation... Achan is the first example of this in the history of Israel, I believe.

Not only that, there would be some question as to the complicity of his family. Did they know he had taken things devoted to the LORD? Even if they didn't certain Achan could be leading all of then down a slippery slope of apostasy. Is it also possible that Achan could have become the next Korah? He certainly questioned and disobeyed the LORD and may have had enough idolatrous objects to start a new cult!

I do not like to do isogesis (reading into text instead of from it), so I am trying to be cautious here, but these are not unreasonable assumptions.

Also, note that Achan took a robe from Shinar (Babylon) in his haul.
It seems very possible that Achan took gold, silver and a robe that were used in the worship of false gods, possibly the gold being an offering of idol itself! While the city the Israelites destroyed wasn't miniscule, it wasn't a huge metropolis either, so the likelihood of a robe from of all places, Babylon, being some guy's dinner jacket seems remote. These may have been religious vestments. I know we cannot say with certainty, but I will quote some earlier text in the bible that warns of such dangers to Israel.

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Deuteronomy 7:

25 The carved images of their gods you shall burn with fire. You shall not covet the silver or the gold that is on them or take it for yourselves, lest you be t ensnared by it, for it is an abomination to the Lord your God. 26 And you shall not bring an abominable thing into your house and become devoted to destruction like it. You shall utterly detest and abhor it, for it is devoted to destruction.
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Now having said all of that, lets look even more closely at the incident with Achan and how it was dealt with.

Note how Achan was given many chances to confess his sin as Joshua eventually asks him to do (for Achan's own benefit, I am sure, since his fate is sealed). The lot had to fall on him after several trials instead of Achan just coming forward. Also, the mentioning of his family being taken to where Achan was stoned may not mean they, too, were stoned, but only made to witness it. The text only explicitly says Achan was killed and that the property was destroyed, but leaves a lot of doubt as to whether the family was also killed (which I tend to doubt).

I think that if we scrutinize this passage more closely, even though it would be a lot more helpful if it was even more detailed, I think there is enough detail to conclude that no matter what happened, the LORD was justified in having Achan stoned and then burned (a sign of total cleansing of his evil from Israeli society -- another point to keep in mind is that God always dealt with Israel corporately primarily in blessing and cursing, then as individuals next... a very different thing than He has done in general with the gentiles. That is another discussion altogether, though

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So, without laboring this more, I shall just submit some ESV Online Study Bible commentary and a passage from Ezekiel that I feel underscores some of the concepts that may benefit us when looking at the criminal trial of Achan.

Israel's Renewal: Ai's Defeat. The first attempt to defeat the city of Ai (ch. 7) apparently proceeded without divine instruction, leaving Israel in the dark regarding its compromised standing brought about by Achan's disobedience. The resulting defeat was costly, as was the remedy made necessary by Achan's/Israel's offense. The present episode recounts the successful defeat of Ai in response to explicit divine instructions, thus underscoring the importance of adherence to‚ the word of the Lord‚ (8:8, 27)

And the Lord said to Joshua‚ Do not fear and do not be dismayed. Take all the fighting men with you, and arise, go up to Ai. See, I have given into your hand the king of Ai, and his people, his city, and his land.


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Josh. 7:24,26 Having brought trouble on Israel by his covetous act, Achan is put to death and he and all that he had are covered under a great heap of stones in the Valley of Achor (Achor represents Hb. ‚Äòakor, which sounds like the Hb. word for trouble, ‚Äòakar). The word them (vv. 24, 25) presumably includes Achan's children, but there is room for uncertainty here because (1) v. 15 only says all that he has; (2) this could be what "them"‚ refers to; and (3) there is no mention of Achan's wife. Seven heaps or piles of stones figure in the Joshua account (see note on 4:20). The first was set up by Joshua in 4:20 as a memorial to the Lord's faithfulness in bringing Israel safely across the Jordan River. This heap of stones over Achan is a reminder of Israel's potential for unfaithfulness and of the dire consequences that result. all Israel stoned him with stones. This method of execution appropriately involved the entire community, as the entire community had been defiled and needed to be purified. It also freed any single individual from bearing the weight of acting as sole executioner.
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www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Ezekiel+20
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Israel's Continuing Rebellion

20:1 In the seventh year, in the fifth month, on the tenth day of the month, certain of the elders of Israel came to inquire of the Lord, and sat before me. 2 And the word of the Lord came to me: 3 Son of man, speak to the elders of Israel, and say to them, Thus says the Lord God, Is it to inquire of me that you come? As I live, declares the Lord God, I will not be inquired of by you. 4 Will you judge them, son of man, will you judge them? Let them know the abominations of their fathers, 5 and say to them, Thus says the Lord God: On the day when I chose Israel, I swore to the offspring of the house of Jacob, making myself known to them in the land of Egypt; I swore to them, saying, I am the Lord your God. 6 On that day I swore to them that I would bring them out of the land of Egypt into a land that I had searched out for them, a land flowing with milk and honey, the most glorious of all lands. 7 And I said to them, Cast away the detestable things your eyes feast on, every one of you, and do not defile yourselves with the idols of Egypt; I am the Lord your God. 8 But they rebelled against me and were not willing to listen to me. None of them cast away the detestable things their eyes feasted on, nor did they forsake the idols of Egypt.

Then I said I would pour out my wrath upon them and spend my anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt. 9 But I acted for the sake of my name, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations among whom they lived, in whose sight I made myself known to them in bringing them out of the land of Egypt. 10 So I led them out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness. 11 I gave them my statutes and made known to them my rules, by which, if a person does them, he shall live. 12 Moreover, I gave them my Sabbaths, as a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord who sanctifies them. 13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness. They did not walk in my statutes but rejected my rules, by which, if a person does them, he shall live; and my Sabbaths they greatly profaned.

Then I said I would pour out my wrath upon them in the wilderness, to make a full end of them. 14 But I acted for the sake of my name, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations, in whose sight I had brought them out. 15 Moreover, I swore to them in the wilderness that I would not bring them into the land that I had given them, a land flowing with milk and honey, the most glorious of all lands, 16 because they rejected my rules and did not walk in my statutes, and profaned my Sabbaths; for their heart went after their idols. 17 Nevertheless, my eye spared them, and I did not destroy them or make a full end of them in the wilderness.

18 And I said to their children in the wilderness, Do not walk in the statutes of your fathers, nor keep their rules, nor defile yourselves with their idols. 19 I am the Lord your God; walk in my statutes, and be careful to obey my rules, 20 and keep my Sabbaths holy that they may be a sign between me and you, that you may know that I am the Lord your God. 21 But the children rebelled against me. They did not walk in my statutes and were not careful to obey my rules, by which, if a person does them, he shall live; they profaned my Sabbaths.

Then I said I would pour out my wrath upon them and spend my anger against them in the wilderness. 22 But I withheld my hand and acted for the sake of my name, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations, in whose sight I had brought them out. 23 Moreover, I swore to them in the wilderness that I would scatter them among the nations and disperse them through the countries, 24 because they had not obeyed my rules, but had rejected my statutes and profaned my Sabbaths, and their eyes were set on their fathers' idols. 25 Moreover, I gave them statutes that were not good and rules by which they could not have life, 26 and I defiled them through their very gifts in their offering up all their firstborn, that I might devastate them. I did it that they might know that I am the Lord.

27 Therefore, son of man, speak to the house of Israel and say to them, Thus says the Lord God: In this also your fathers blasphemed me, by dealing treacherously with me. 28 For when I had brought them into the land that I swore to give them, then wherever they saw any high hill or any leafy tree, there they offered their sacrifices and there they presented the provocation of their offering; there they sent up their pleasing aromas, and there they poured out their drink offerings. 29 (I said to them, What is the high place to which you go? So its name is called Bamah to this day.)

30 Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: Will you defile yourselves after the manner of your fathers and go whoring after their detestable things? 31 When you present your gifts and offer up your children in fire, you defile yourselves with all your idols to this day. And shall I be inquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live, declares the Lord God, I will not be inquired of by you.

32 What is in your mind shall never happen‚ the thought, Let us be like the nations, like the tribes of the countries, and worship wood and stone.
The Lord Will Restore Israel

33 As I live, declares the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm and with wrath poured out I will be king over you. 34 I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out. 35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will enter into judgment with you face to face. 36 As I entered into judgment with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will enter into judgment with you, declares the Lord God. 37 I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant. 38 I will purge out the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against me. I will bring them out of the land where they sojourn, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord.

39 As for you, O house of Israel, thus says the Lord God: Go serve every one of you his idols, now and hereafter, if you will not listen to me; but my holy name you shall no more profane with your gifts and your idols.

40 For on my holy mountain, the mountain height of Israel, declares the Lord God, there all the house of Israel, all of them, shall serve me in the land. There I will accept them, and there I will require your contributions and the choicest of your gifts, with all your sacred offerings. 41 As a pleasing aroma I will accept you, when I bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you have been scattered. And I will manifest my holiness among you in the sight of the nations. 42 And you shall know that I am the Lord, when I bring you into the land of Israel, the country that I swore to give to your fathers. 43 And there you shall remember your ways and all your deeds with which you have defiled yourselves, and you shall loathe yourselves for all the evils that you have committed. 44 And you shall know that I am the Lord, when I deal with you for my name's sake, not according to your evil ways, nor according to your corrupt deeds, O house of Israel, declares the Lord God.


please forgive the length of this post, but just saying "Yeah, kill that bum Achan!" didn't seem to do this incident justice
I certainly hope his repentance to the LORD brought mercy for him.

peace

"Also, the mentioning of his family being taken to where Achan was stoned may not mean they, too, were stoned, but only made to witness it. The text only explicitly says Achan was killed and that the property was destroyed, but leaves a lot of doubt as to whether the family was also killed (which I tend to doubt).

I think that if we scrutinize this passage more closely, even though it would be a lot more helpful if it was even more detailed, I think there is enough detail to conclude that no matter what happened, the LORD was justified in having Achan stoned and then burned (a sign of total cleansing of his evil from Israeli society -- another point to keep in mind is that God always dealt with Israel corporately primarily in blessing and cursing, then as individuals next... a very different thing than He has done in general with the gentiles. That is another discussion altogether, though..."

HERE IS WHAT MY NAS BIBLE SAYS: 25 And Joshua said, "Why have you troubled us? The LORD will trouble you this day." And all Israel stoned them with stones; and they burned them with fire after they had stoned them with stones.

I'm NOT seeing much "doubt" about "them" being both stoned and burned with fire. Looks pretty final to me. Am I missing something?

I don't think you are personally missing anything, but this is one of those translation issues where the NASB has departed from essentially literal translation to a chosen theological interpretation of the original text in its own translation itself.

This is one of those stones we can stumble upon as we accompany the Israelites upon the journey of the history of redemption and either fall flat on our face (as do some Biblical Critics) or catch our fall and continue on.

What I mean by that is that it is a place in the ancient Hebrew text that while it may appear minuscule, the difference in a word or the interpretation of the terse style that Biblical Hebrew is sometimes written in can cause minor troubles (and possible major departures in conclusion) in translation or presupposition that the text was somehow altered by Redactionists later, causing the problems between “HIM” and “THEM”, as some Biblical Criticism will imply. Redactionism is a slippery slope that can cause us to basically say that the Bible was altered and making this assumption. The assumption that the Joshua 7 text was altered at some point in the distant past has no evidence at all but what some would CLAIM appears internally in the text. In reality, is merely an ASSUMPTION and something we can avoid here, but apparently the translators of the text into English on the NASB committee did not avoid, but rather forced the translation of “him” into “them” to fit that presupposition that the text makes more sense or was later redacted if the did so. In truth, they have mistakenly altered the meaning of the text in English by forcibly changing what is obviously “him” in Hebrew to artificially conform to the rest of the passage in English and their interpretation of the text. This mishandling can easily be avoided and the possible (and I think probable) conclusion that I am taking away from the passage. In studying Joshua 7 in order to make a coherent response here on the forum to this post and to give a reasoning of the principles I was using to make such a possible assertion, I have found others through the centuries that are looked at the original Hebrew made no such conclusion that the entire family was killed, but only Achan himself.

As I have said before, I will not dogmatically try to convince anyone of this, but I think this passage is highly useful in showing how the modern reader tends to approach such minor stumbling stones and may presume interpretations that aren't not clearly there - as in the infamous Nephilim posts on this forum hahaha
Sadly, this passage, too, suffers from a "cut and paste" repeating of commentary online, so the weight of argument FOR the family also being slain appears greater online that it otherwise would be (but I do concede that many seem to lean that way).

This is also one of those places that we can practice sound interpretation based on carefully reading the whole of a text, the overview of things established before in the Bible and other such proper hermeneutics

NASB Joshua 7:
15'It shall be that the one who is taken with the things under the ban shall be burned with fire, he and all that belongs to him, because he has transgressed the covenant of the LORD, and because he has committed a disgraceful thing in Israel.'


I don't think you are missing anything, but this is a case of problems in translation from the originally ancient Hebrew mss to English and also a presupposition of interpretation and possible a view of this passage being redacted later, which caused those working on the NASB to forcibly alter the Hebrew "him" to "them" to fit the rest of the passage.

While I have great respect for the NASB, it is a translation, and the committee chose to alter "him" to "them" to maintain what they thought was consistent in their approach. However, this is also a departure from essentially literal principles, which I will show in a later post.
I am busy preparing for finals and I find this forum a fun and enjoyable diversion, but I also take the handling of God's Word with great seriousness -not that I want to commit Bibliolotry, but we are told to be diligent in search the Scriptures and I do not wish to be careless in that regard.

So...
the short answer here is: the NASB got that wrong.
Please check this against most other translations & the original Hebrew to see why I say this.

onlineparallelbible.com/joshua/7.htm

The long answer I am working on I will hopefully post late tonight after classes. This is a great opportunity to show how one can get lost easily in "Who's on first?" errors in pronouns and presuppositions in interpretation because we are not looking closely at the text or the previous & overall principle that have already been established in the Bible or the passage as a whole.

As a precursor to my final post, I will point out a few things:

1) that earlier in the Joshua 7 passage that God already said what was going to happen:

15'It shall be that the one who is taken with the things under the ban shall be burned with fire, he and all that belongs to him, because he has transgressed the covenant of the LORD, and because he has committed a disgraceful thing in Israel.'"

(so we see that God is searching out ONE person that "has committed a disgraceful thing in Israel")

2) Where are family (whether wives or children, etc) EVER considered property or "belonging" to a person before or after this passage?
I say this because this is one of the basis' that people use to further the interpretation that the family was also killed.

3) Who or what is the “them” that was stoned and burned in the passage after it is said that they stoned “him” (Achan)????

What I am slowly trying to do here is make the case here using several approaches that I will show harmonize that the jumping to the conclusion that the family was killed leads to mistranslation, possible misinterpretation and the breaking of many principles of Scripture and proper hermeneutics.

Bless you, fotop, and thanks for challenging both of us

Peace,
TimberWolf