OneYearBibleOnline Discussion

16 "Let our lord now command your sevants who are before you. Let them seek a man who is a skillful player on the harp; and it shall come about when the evil spirit from God is on you, that he shall lay the harp with his hand, and you will be well."

This is totally beyond my comprehension... "the evil spirit from God" part!

Evil from God?

Here are some things to consider when reading passages like this:

Ps 81:8-12: "'Hear, O my people, and I will warn you-- if you would but listen to me, O Israel! You shall have no foreign god among you; you shall not bow down to an alien god. I am the LORD your God, who brought you up out of Egypt. Open wide your mouth and I will fill it.' But my people would not listen to me; Israel would not submit to me. So I gave them over to their stubborn hearts to follow their own devices."

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This is exactly what God did with Israel and allowed with Saul ... when the Spirit of God is removed, God allows people to be left to their own devices and for evil to come in. God allows evil to chasten a person, to rule them as they chose, since they don't want God's rule.

For whatever God's purposes are, He allows Satan & evil to do their thing without God's restraining influence.

Just as Job was part of something larger that he did not know... and Joseph said that the trials he endured were meant for evil from men, but by God for good.. as God hardened Pharaoh's heart and also allowed it to be hardened (a good hint at how to look at this 1 Samuel passage), so He permitted evil to come upon Saul when He removed His good and holy Spirit from Saul.

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The Psalm above and many other Scriptures give us the principles at work as Saul disobeys the Lord. Here are some:

Romans 9: 14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? b Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience e vessels of wrath f prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known g the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he h has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called ...

(note that Paul is citing other passages of Scripture in this, also)
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later in our One Year Bible readings, in 1 Chronicles 10, we see the mindset of Saul and why all of these things came upon him... the true spiritual nature of Saul and his false spirituality (something I was going to and will comment on in another post):

1 Chronicles 10: 13 So Saul died a for his breach of faith. He broke faith with the Lord in that he did not keep the command of the Lord, and also consulted a medium, seeking guidance. 14 He did not seek guidance from the Lord. Therefore the Lord put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse.

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The way that God works His will among human wills and still maintains the integrity of His and our own personhood is a very interesting and sometimes confusing thing.

Isaiah 55 gives us a glimpse at the total difference in our human ways versus God's perfect and holy ones:

6 “Seek the Lord while he may be found;
call upon him while he is near;
7 let the wicked forsake his way,
and the unrighteous man his thoughts;
let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him,
and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

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Saul is so blatantly out of step with God all throughout 1 Samuel, committing one spiritual abomination after another ( unlawful sacrifice, rash oaths and and many other instances of disobeying God and acting from his own human passions, etc) is it any wonder that God finally did what He said he does with unrepentant sinners:

Romans 1:28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.

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As I said before, when such things are spoken of they can be hard for us, because they can be spoken of in the human or divine perspective and it can be quite confusing, yet the principles are clear throughout Scripture that we alone are guilty for our own sinful ways.


This is one topic I have been interested in very much over the years and I appreciate your post, fotop, because it is a very, very pertinent question. To not go "huh!!?" is not to read the Scriptures very closely or to have an inquiring mind (which you have and we all should have!)
This could be an ongoing topic and is hotly contested just because of how complex one litlel statement and all of the possible implications can become!

The Isaiah 55 "answer" to it isn't always satisfying and can leave us as much enlightened as wondering, but I think that is just because of how human will and God's will interact in this linear time frame we are in. God can sovereignly and justly guard us from evil or permit it. God sees the end from the beginning and knows things we don't.


Peace,
Jeff

So, Timberwolf, are you thinking that "evil spirit from God" refers to what happens to us when we "don't want God's rule" and are " left to our own devices" ~ a "default" issue?

It reads to me like God is actually GIVING the evil spirit ["from God"]... thus the question, because THAT really makes no sense to me! [I get the "default" issue, and unfortunately suffer those consequences way too often myself.]

1 John tells us that there is no darkness or evil in God, so God cannot "give" Saul an evil spirit from himself (also translated as harmful, but evil works for me too)

God can allow an evil spirit to come upon Saul (probably the same character flaws Saul has shown all along, but now unrestrained by God's spirit)

The spirit came from God in the sense of authority (just as God allowed Satan to plague Job and his family), not out of God... God is called holy and His Spirit is holy... set apart from all evil! ....God isn't evil, so in what other manner can we take this?

I mentioned Job in my last reply, because sometimes God will allow actual, literal evil beings to harass people if they are apart from God or for His purposes.

Look at how Jesus spoke of those that were demonized... if a demon is cast out and the person turns back to the ways that they formerly were doing, then the demon returns with reinforcements!

Return of an Unclean Spirit

24 “When the unclean spirit has gone out of a person, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, and finding none it says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ 25 And when it comes, it finds the house swept and put in order. 26 Then it goes and brings seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they enter and dwell there. And the last state of that person is worse than the first.”

Saul drove the mediums out of Israel , but went to one before he died ( a perfect example of how that principle works! )

the word for 'spirit" can be used in many senses as in Exodus 14:

22 none of the men who have seen my glory and my signs that I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and yet have put me to the test these ten times and have not obeyed my voice, 23 shall see the land that I swore to give to their fathers. And none of those who despised me shall see it. 24 But my servant Caleb, because he has a different spirit and has followed me fully, I will bring into the land into which he went, and his descendants shall possess it.

Saul just went headlong into his normal state of being w/o God's restraining protection (evil spirit and all, whatever it may mean, literal demonic spirit or not).

Either way I can believe, because it still fits the unified voice of Scripture of all that was before (like Job and Exodus 14) and all that will follow, as in the words of Jesus.

The Holy Spirit is called "the Restrainer" for good reason!

Greetings and Thanks to both of you...

In agreement with and quoting Timberwolf ... “For whatever God's purposes are, He allows Satan & evil to do their thing without God's restraining influence.”

Contemplating 1 Samuel 16:16, (and the situation of Isaiah 20:1).....I was thinking of how very bizarre (sinful) behaviors have inconceivably (..huh?!...for me) been allowed to occur and yet ironically at this point (for me personally), that seems to strengthen the case of HIS “ SOVEREIGNTY” more so than an opposing argument of “a lack of control” (power)....not an issue easy to wrap around in situations like 16:16/19:24.

As you mentioned Timberwolf ...“1 John tells us that there is no darkness or evil in God”....

I'm so glad that you referenced Romans 9, .....it really helped to drive home my understanding of the “sovereignty issue”!
….When I went to read the whole chapter, it was subtitled “God's Sovereign Choice”.

Romans 9: 14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

…. 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called ...



Now that I have a deeper understanding that GOD IS SOVEREIGN over all, and nothing can occur unless HE allows (and this includes evil BECAUSE HE does have the final say).....

I'm thankful and ready for the next issue....


Peace, Love, and Thanks....
IN HIS NAME,

eoH