One Year® Bible Online Forum

I love the PDF … thank you for that!


There is one thing that keeps gnawing at me though ...

You've stated: “What is so terrifying about the darkness and this vision? It is so serious and terrifying because God is basically saying: 'Let what has happened to these animals happen to me if I do not keep my word!' That is very serious! If God does not keep His promise, He is promising to undo His own existence!”


There must be more to this story than what is evident here. … This is a VERY SERIOUS statement! … Would you please elaborate on the basis of this conclusion?

Thank you.

There are several reasons:

1) The Abrahamic Covenant is One-Sided! Only God Himself has promised to do anything whatsoever to fulfill this covenant.
He has sworn by Himself, evidenced by the Theophany that passed through the animals.
If the covenant is not kept, then the very nature of God is broken - God cannot lie!
If God does not keep the covenant, He undoes His whole nature! Since God does not change, to not keep the covenant and to lie would be to change. God has laid His very existence as the basis of this covenant!

2) The entire Scripture from this point on as it builds the progressive plan of salvation to Abraham (who only saw a burial plot as his inheritance when he died) to the birth of the brought out nation of Israel, to the Kingdom of David, to the death & resurrection of Messiah, the spreading of the Gospel to the nation (nations blessed by Abraham) to the final culmination of the entire scope of redemptive history at Christ's return is ALL based upon the Abrahamic Covenant.

It is constantly referred to in Scripture.

Human beings have nothing to do with this covenant - the basis of all salvation and the entire plan of God hinges upon fulfilling His Word or showing Himself to be something other than he claims!

Either He is the God that fulfills the Abrahamic covenant or He is NOT God.

There are many, many other reasons, but It would take me a long time to even scratch them, but if you search the Scriptures, you will see that every covenant in Scripture, every act in redemptive history, every blessing to the world, hinges upon God covenanting with Abraham to do what He has always purposed to do (which is alluded to in the proto-evangelium of Genesis 3).

I hope this helps some

Peace
Jeff

Romans 9:6-8 "For not all Israelites are true Israelites nor are all Abraham's descendants his children, but as Scripture says, 'through Isaac shall your descendants be called.' That means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God; it is the children of the promise who are to be considered descendants."

.. “If the covenant is not kept, then the very nature of God is broken - God cannot lie!”

Thank you for clarifying ...


.. “I hope this helps some ”

And then some! .. Thank you!


... A spark was ignited, I was inspired to delve deeper … { I have an increasing interest in the Covenant/ Sacrificial Consecration/ Confirmation process }...

I found the following references interesting as well … (In addition to loads of references regarding The Abrahamic Covenant under Scofield Reference Notes) ...

NOTE: At Biblos, this specific reference is under “Wesley's Notes” /(Genesis 15, vs 15-17)…
On the OYB Online link; it is listed under Mathew Henry Complete Commentary / G E N E S I S CHAP. XV. ...


... 3. The passing of these between the pieces was the confirming of the covenant God now made with him. It is probable this furnace and lamp, which passed between the pieces, burned and consumed them, and so compleated the sacrifice, and testified God's acceptance of it, as of Gideon's, Jud 6:21, Manoah's, Jud 13:19,20, and Solomon's, 2Ch 7:1. So it intimates, That God's covenants with man are made by sacrifice, Psa 50:5, by Christ, the great sacrifice.


I appreciate the Romans 9 verse … as well as the following verses pertaining to the “grafting in” of the gentiles who are also the children of the promise....


A stern message to all ...


Romans 11:

1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! ...

…11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry

14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, ^Rand you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. [Ephesians 2:12-14]

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, ^Ryou also will be cut off. [John 15:1-4]

23 And ^Rif they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. [2 Corinthians 3:12-18]

24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! ....


Doxology...

33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
      How unsearchable his judgments,
      and his paths beyond tracing out!
 34 "Who has known the mind of the Lord?
      Or who has been his counselor?"
 35 "Who has ever given to God,
      that God should repay him?"
 36 For from him and through him and to him are all things.
      To him be the glory forever! Amen.

................................................................................................................................................

John 15

5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8 This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.


Thanks again ..


Peace,

IN HIS NAME

There is a slight problem with Wesley's interpretation (even though I respect this great man of God who brought many to Christ through his energetic and profuse preaching!)

The animals were not a sacrifice to God, as I asserted earlier.
Almost all commentators acknowledge that the animals were to be passed between by those who were bound by the contract or covenant. This legal procedure was only undertaken by God. Abram was placed into a sleep by the LORD to prevent Abram from being able to do so, but in the vision he witnessed God walking through the middle of the animals as a theophany.
The Abrahamic Covenant is one-sided, with nothing for Abraham or his decedents to fulfill. God lays His reputation, His word and His existence on the line in this covenant. If He does not fulfill it He is vowing to become as the slain animals. If this were a sacrifice TO God, it would be done as was done with the ram instead of Isaac. Burnt offerings must be done on altars made of unhewn stone. This is not the case here. Even in Noah's day and before this was the way it was always done when sacrificing to the LORD. Abraham would not have been able to "pass through" a sacrifice on an altar, hence this is a legal procedure, not a sacrifice to God. Only the LORD is bound by the terms of this covenant. A sacrifice would imply Abraham being part of the terms, also.

The giving of the Law later is an example of a covenant binding upon 2 parties (the LORD and Israel). The imagery of the giving of Torah is one of marriage - a dual covenant - the Abrahamic Covenant is God acting out the will He has purposed all along.

Abraham knew that the LORD meant to covenant with him and assumed that he, too, would pass through the animals, but the LORD prevented him, in order to show that this covenant was wholly dependent upon the LORD Himself and not Abraham.

Wesley, as brilliant as he was, may not have understood the customs of those days.

Jeff

Ok … Rewind ..

Back to Genesis 15:8 But Abram said, "O Sovereign LORD, how can I know that I will gain possession of it?"


Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary:

15:7-11 Assurance was given to Abram of the land of Canaan for an inheritance. God never promises more than he is able to perform, as men often do.

Abram did as God commanded him.

He divided the beasts in the midst, according to the ceremony used in confirming covenants, *Jer 34:18,19.

Having prepared according to God's appointment, he set himself to wait for the sign God might give him.


*Jeremiah 34:18 The men who have violated my covenant and have not fulfilled the terms of the covenant they made before me, I will treat like the calf they cut in two and then walked between its pieces. 19 The leaders of Judah and Jerusalem, the court officials, the priests and all the people of the land who walked between the pieces of the calf,


>>> Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary:

34:18 passed between the parts thereof-The contracting parties in the "covenant" (not here the law in general, but their covenant made before God in His house to emancipate their slaves, Jer 34:8, 9) passed through the parts of the animal cut in two, implying that they prayed so to be cut in sunder (Mt 24:51; Greek, "cut in two") if they should break the covenant (Ge 15:10, 17)

….....................................................................................................................................................


NOW I understand exactly why you made this particular statement - “God is basically saying: “Let what has happened to these animals happen to me if I do not keep my word!” That is very serious! If God does not keep His promise, He is promising to undo His own existence!” ...This is the “more to this story” that I was originally referring to … (And not just the TRUTH that “GOD cannot lie.”)

I was originally looking for the reference to Jeremiah 34 .. pertaining to this type of “ceremony/ritual” (Which I thought I had seen, but had not read yet)
.. Anyhow, I couldn't find it again, so I thought I “must have been mistaken” and let it go ….


Even without understanding the full reason behind the passing between … I did understand that this was a Confirmation (and a a sign) of the Covenant being made by GOD (and nothing on Abrams part).

So, as for this statement ... “3. The passing of these between the pieces was the confirming of the covenant God now made with him.”
… This part is true.

Regarding: “It is probable this furnace and lamp, which passed between the pieces, burned and consumed them, and so completed the sacrifice, and testified God's acceptance of it, as of Gideon's, Jud 6:21, Manoah's, Jud 13:19,20, and Solomon's, 2Ch 7:1. So it intimates, That God's covenants with man are made by sacrifice, Psa 50:5, by Christ, the great sacrifice.” ….

Initially, I took it as implying that the burning/consumption of the pieces is what concluded (completed) the “covenant” …


Judges 6:21 With the tip of the staff that was in his hand, the angel of the LORD touched the meat and the unleavened bread. Fire flared from the rock, consuming the meat and the bread. And the angel of the LORD disappeared.

Judges 13:19-20
19 Then Manoah took a young goat, together with the grain offering, and sacrificed it on a rock to the LORD. And the LORD did an amazing thing while Manoah and his wife watched: 20 As the flame blazed up from the altar toward heaven, the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame. Seeing this, Manoah and his wife fell with their faces to the ground.

2 Chr 7:1 When Solomon finished praying, fire came down from heaven and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices, and the glory of the LORD filled the temple.


It appears to me that in each reference, the emphasis is on the fire/flame .. consuming... (thus completing..?)

… Is it possible that “acceptance” was a bad choice of words?


In any case … I'm thankful that light was shed on the subject .. … It just goes to show yet another way that scripture can easily be misinterpreted. … And the importance of research/context.

Genesis is a very terse book. The scripture references you found illustrate how we must keep ALL of Scripture in context, even in our study of a particular writing within it.
This is a tall order!

I was fairly convinced you would do the research, so I just kept building upon my statements
hehe sorry
Sometimes it's better to sweat it through than be "given an answer"
There was a comment in the intro section of the forum that sometimes what is taught by people is questionable. If we don't put in the work, it will be!

I love the Bible because as we read it, it becomes even more magnificent to us as the Holy Spirit rewards the "Berean" that studies the Scriptures to see if these things are true!

The Abrahamic Covenant takes on its true cosmic significance if it is placed in the context it really occupies!

What an awesome God that lays it all on the line to fulfill His word... and He did fulfill it... in Jesus, who layed down His life to fulfill all that was promised!

I really, really enjoyed this, Grace!

This is the stuff that makes it so interesting, fun and spiritually edifying!

WOOOT

Lord bless

Jeff

I was noticing today in our reading that God once more reaffirms His covenant with Abraham and his descendants.

"What’s more, I am with you, and I will protect you wherever you go. One day I will bring you back to this land. I will not leave you until I have finished giving you everything I have promised you.”

Jacob had the vision of the angels descending and ascending the "stairway to heaven" also known as "Jacob's Ladder".

Jacob is amazed when he awakens and says basically" WOW! God is here and I didn't even know it!"
He builds a memorial pillar of the stone he slept upon and sanctifies it with oil (another great allusion!)
The stone represents the house of God. Are we not living stones of the house of God?

1 Peter 2:5 you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Peter makes a reference back to this event. Jacob, who would later be renamed ISRAEL, had the vision of angels ascending and descending where he lay! Jacob made a spiritual sacrifice of oil upon the pillar of the "house of God".

Scripture is deep and powerful!

God's will is progressively being revealed and continually affirmed in all of Scripture as we read through the OYB... and we are a part of it!

Peace,
Jeff